Postpartum brain fog with doula Julia Jones

And in this episode today, we discuss all what a baby brain is, or when does it start, we discussed how long baby brain lasts, and why is baby brain even a thing. So, the first 10-15 minutes we do dive into the brain changes that occurs. So, a little bit technical. But then the final half of the episode we discuss how a person might be feeling with baby brain. And we go through some strategies and tips to help embrace it, recognize it, and also to help reduce overwhelm that might also be associated with baby brain. So, it’s a great episode one I trust you will really get a lot of value out of.

So, before we do dive into this episode, I invite you to come and join us inside FitNest Mama. If you have found, you’re not exercising as much as you’d like to during pregnancy and post pregnancy. Perhaps you’re busy or you’ve lost the motivation to exercise or you’re not sure how to best be looking after your body. Or you’ve got pelvic girdle pain, abdominal muscle separation, you’re not sure about the best exercises for you. All you’ve had your baby you’ll want to get back into exercise you will want to get back into running after birth and you want the best kickstart possible then FitNest Mama is for you. So, join us for these convenient short easy workouts that you can do from the comfort of your home whilst your baby sleeps, or your toddler runs around causing havoc or at the end of a long day at work. Head to fitnestmama.com and the link is in the show notes.

Right. Let’s dive into this episode.

So, Julia, thank you so much for joining me today on the FitNest Mama Podcast. I am having a little chuckle as I’m introducing you because we are talking all things baby brain. And although I do not have a baby brain, I forgot to hit record. So here we are, again. For those who don’t know who you are, can you please give us a little rundown of what you do, why you do what you do? And yeah, all those important amazing things.

JULIA JONES

Sure. So, my name is Julia. My business is called Newborn Mothers. And I’ve been working in postpartum care for about 15 years now. And most of what I do now is training. So, we train mostly doulas, but also midwives, physios, social workers. And what we find is that a lot of people have gone through some other kind of training even like a full degree. And they’re really noticing that they there’s a gap in their knowledge when it comes to postpartum. There’s sort of things missing there where we really focus on pregnancy and childbirth, and not you know, then they’re kind of like there’s this bit where you know what happens next and I don’t feel like I’ve really got the full skills, or also they might have knowledge in things like breastfeeding and baby care. But in terms of that whole life transition of becoming a mother, the initiation, the rite of passage, and the changes that happen in your in your brain and your personality, and the way that a community and professional should support a mum through that change. That’s really missing, I think in a lot of people’s kind of understanding, not just in formal education, but in our entire culture. It’s just a real blind spot. So that’s what I do now.

KATH BAQUIE

And I just love that we’re chatting because I 100% agree. It’s like pregnancy, we were taken care of during pregnancy. And then after we have our baby, there’s all the sort of specialized I guess, services, as you said, breastfeeding, caring for the baby, mental health. But in terms of the holistic support, we’re really lacking. So, this term of Matrescence, would you say it’s quite a new term?

JULIA JONES

Well, it was actually coined by Dana Raphael, who’s an anthropologist, and she also coined the word doula in its modern sense. So, she was around in the 70s. And she was a really, really formative person in this in this space of bringing, bringing some of those traditions back to life. She herself had a difficult time breastfeeding. And she though why is breastfeeding so hard for me when surely like every other mother for all of human history has been able to breastfeed that child because we didn’t used to have formula like, you know, humans couldn’t have survived if it was really this hard to breastfeed. So, what are we doing differently? And so, she, as an anthropologist, obviously started to look at other cultures. And what she found is that in nearly 200 cultures that she studied, there is a special role a specifically named person who comes after baby’s born and cares for the mum. And that’s where she kind of like coined the word doula, which has come to mean different things over the years. But that was her intention for the word.

KATH BAQUIE

How interesting. I know we’re talking about baby brain. So, I know we’re going on a bit of a tangent. But this is really interesting. Doula, I feel I’ve always known traditionally from someone who actually attends the birth. But are you saying it initially came out as more of the postpartum care?

JULIA JONES

Yeah, well, originally, if you go far back enough, it’s actually a Greek word that means a female slave. And that doesn’t really have very good connotations. And Greek people actually don’t like the word and I’ve even asked us to stop using it. So, I often talk about professional postpartum care, or you know, a postpartum worker or something like that. I try and use a lot of other words as well. But I still do throw in the word doula there because people know then what I’m talking about.

KATH BAQUIE

Isn’t that fascinating? I can totally see that. If we’re using the word doula, and it means female slave. It’s not great.

JULIA JONES

No, no. And it has a whole lot of connotations in Greek that, you know, aren’t pleasant, that they’re not really what we are meaning. So, Dana Raphael’s story is that she was talking about this work one day in the supermarket saying, you know, I’ve been researching this role and all these different cultures that have this specific person who comes in cares for mums. And then and her version of events is that there was an old Greek grandmother overheard her and turned around and said, oh, we call them doulas. So that’s where she came across the word with all good intentions, but I’m sure if she was still alive today, she probably would be, you know, like exploring the semantics of it a little bit more now that we know more. So, she initially meant breastfeeding support. That was her original research. Then she also coined the word Matrescrence as well. But what happened with the word doula is then as birth became more medicalized, and we weren’t providing that emotional, physical, practical support to mums. The continuity of care that mums needed in the labour room, that’s where that non-medical role kind of moved into that that world to fill that gap. And then doula is now much more known as birth support.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah, right. So fascinating. Okay, let’s move on to Baby Brain then. Because this, again, is a term that perhaps is thrown around a lot. And I actually didn’t even think of much about this term at all, it was just a term that we use throwaway term. But you’ve got some more to say about this throwaway term that I’ve been using for a decade of my life. So, let’s go into what is baby brain in from your perspective?

JULIA JONES

Yeah, so obviously, a lot of people think baby brain just means like stupid, ditzy, forgetful, clumsy, you know, just all bad things. And for a long time, I really rejected the idea of baby brain because I was, I just thought it was another way that we were keeping women in the kitchen. Another way to make sure women stayed in their spot and didn’t, you know, do anything other than be a good housewife and a good mother.

So, I really didn’t like it or associated it until I actually went to a talk with a paediatrician and lactation consultant called Christina Smiley. She was the first person who introduced me to this idea about 10 years ago, talking about baby brain as a positive thing and reclaiming it. And even in those 10 years that I’ve had a better understanding of baby brain. It is changing so fast. There are new studies coming out all the time, and so much more that we know understand about baby brain. So, the easiest way to understand it is if there is a computer algorithm that can tell with 100% accuracy, whether it’s looking at the brain of a person who’s been pregnant, or a person who’s never been pregnant. And so just being pregnant, already completely changes your brain with no other impacts, like even if that baby is stillborn. Or even if you know, you give the baby to someone else to raise, and you aren’t engaged with parenting at all. Just the act of being pregnant, already changes your brain completely. And some of those changes are kind of sound a bit scary, like one of them is gray matter reduction, which, you know, that really doesn’t sound like a good thing. But when you actually look at it as a more bigger picture thing, the way I like to describe it is it’s a little bit like getting an upgrade to your operating system. So, you do clear a lot of stuff out, it’s like you empty out all of the files, the cabinets, you know, throw all this stuff out. And then you have to rewire. Okay, what do I actually need in this new role to be a good parent?

So, there’s high, there’s two real main characteristics of these changes, and one of them relates to neuroplasticity, so the change ability of your brain, and the other one relates to oxytocin, which is the love hormone. And so, you can understand why when you’re entering into this new life, where someone else is 100% dependent on you to survive that, though, that you need to adapt to this role very quickly, which is what the plasticity is for. And you need to really bond to with that baby, and not only with the baby, but with your partner and with your community as well, because we all know it should take a village to raise a child. And that’s how we were designed. So that’s kind of the two main areas of changes. And what we know now is that that baby brain actually is a really protective thing for mothers, it can help them not only to be good mothers, but also to be happy mothers. And that it also comes with a whole lot of things that make mothers better in other aspects of their life, too. So, mother’s brains are more ambitious, they’re better at assessing risk, they’re more efficient, we have better sensory awareness. And all of these things can make us better in lots of different aspects of our lives as well, not just motherhood.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah, wow. Because I’ve always thought of it as a term, like sort of as an excuse for forgetfulness, or for fatigue, when you’re feeling really tired, and you’re not, you know, at your, your normal peak functioning self. So that is all very interesting, isn’t it?

JULIA JONES

Well, and that’s still true. I mean, it is tiring, going through massive brain changes, it’s a bit like going through puberty, it’s a similar kind of thing that you do feel a bit overwhelmed, things are a bit more chaotic, your brain is really open learning tons of new information. And it’s hard to know, during that stage, which of these things do I need to hold on to and which of these things do I not, you know, so you can be more forgetful. However, I also want to just draw a little line under that too, and say, we also don’t care for mums very well in our society. So, whilst these changes are designed to be good, they can have negative impacts when a mother is to stress too overwhelmed, too lonely, you know, so we should also be looking out for these things in a more negative way as well.

KATH BAQUIE

Okay, well, I do want to dive into that. But first, sorry, I don’t know why I’m sorry, I’m really interested in this. But do you know whether or not the baby brain like as you said, the reduction in gray matter? Is that as a result of hormonal changes that occur during pregnancy? Is that the main driver behind all of this?

JULIA JONES

Yes, it’s likely, there’s still so much we don’t know. So, it’s really hard to tell. But definitely the biological act of being pregnant triggers a lot of the changes, but the changes continue after the baby’s born only if you play a hands on role in parenting, which is another kind of bit of evidence that we’ve adapted for a village of carers, because actually, any carer, they don’t have to be biologically related to the child can learn better parenting skills, and actually experience some brain changes by hands on interacting with that baby.

KATH BAQUIE

Amazing. So adoptive parents, husbands’ partners, everyone can get baby brain.

JULIA JONES

Exactly, exactly. So, there’s both environmental impacts. And there’s also like just biological impacts as well that that can give you some of these, these changes. And that’s really important to keep in mind because that’s another way that we can sometimes try and trap mums into only one role in life by kind of assuming that somehow, they would be superior. But in fact, aunts, uncles, grandparents, older brothers and sisters, anyone can learn to be a great parent just by parenting.

KATH BAQUIE

That’s great. I think that’s also probably quite reassuring for parents who are in the thick of it and feeling quite isolated at the moment, or like they got full roll of parenting.

JULIA JONES

Yes. Knowing that it wasn’t actually designed that way. And in traditional human societies, we would have had about 8 to 14 adult carers for every baby. So, it’s really like good to keep in mind that if you are feeling really exhausted, that’s because you’re doing the job of 8 to 14 people.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah, sounds amazing to have 8 to 14 people, I keep saying to my friends, we all need to buy a house next to each other that open up the back gardens. How good would that be?

JULIA JONES

Yeah, exactly.

KATH BAQUIE

Okay, going back to the Baby Brain. You talked about how it starts in pregnancy? How long can baby brain last?

JULIA JONES

We don’t know. But as we do know, the changes are permanent. So, it doesn’t matter if you’re 90 years old, your brain scan will still show whether you’ve ever been pregnant before or not. There are studies currently going up to about two years show that the changes are still happening. And they haven’t studied beyond that point. And I did just see, and I literally haven’t read it because it just came out a few days ago. But there’s a new study showing that something about the changes is still happening at six years after having a baby. So, a long time. Sometimes people ask me what is postpartum mean? And I’d say it means after the birth, that’s the rest of your life. So, you’ll never go back to being the same person you were. These brain changes are adaptive to make you a good parent. And you will always then be aware of your baby and want to keep them alive. You know, forever. That doesn’t change when just because they’ve left home or something.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah, I totally get that. And the brain, as you said, it’s plastic, and it keeps changing. And adapting. And that’s one of the amazing things about being a human, I think is our ability to adapt to any stage of our life.

JULIA JONES

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because so we always have neuroplasticity throughout our whole lifetimes. And this was something that was actually studied by and discovered by a female neuroscientist, and a mother. Her name was Marian Diamond. And she had, she was a brain scientist, she had four children. And Brian, this is quite a long time ago, she started doing this work. And after she had her own children, she was like, I feel different. I’m a different person, someone needs to study this, oh, it’s going to have to be me. So, she’s studied a lot of stuff to do with oxytocin. And sorry, I think I’m mixing up her story. I don’t think she’s the one that discovered neuroplasticity. She’s the one who’s done a lot of work with oxytocin. But either way, what we see is a history of a lot of women scientists going like, hang on, no one’s ever looked at things from this perspective before.

So, neuroplasticity used to be because we could only study dead brains, we used to have to wait till someone died, then we’d slice their brain open and look at it. You there was this assumption that brains were static that that was how they always looked. And they would never change. But in fact, now since we’ve had brain scans, and because of these earlier studies, as well by female scientists, we now know that your brain is always changing. However, there are times in your life, the first few years of life, puberty, and matrescence, when you become a mother. That mean that these this neuroplasticity is massively increased.

KATH BAQUIE

Interesting. And does that go through to menopause as well?

JULIA JONES

We don’t think so. So, there are definitely a lot of links between postpartum and menopause. And there are a lot of hormonal changes that that happen in the brain during menopause. But as far as I’m aware, I used to think neuroplasticity didn’t happen during menopause, but I don’t think it does. The studies are not showing that. But there’s definitely a lot of hormonal changes that happen. But again, I might have to go and look some of this stuff up. I know, the latest science because it is honestly new things are coming out every week and month at the moment.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah. And I know I’m putting you on the spot. And we’re talking about things we didn’t say we’d talk about. So, I would want to now dive into the changes that someone might feel if they’re experiencing baby brain, and I know you’ve touched on a few of them. But I’d love to dive into what are some of the changes that might occur that might contribute to someone feeling a bit more overwhelmed or? Yeah, like, everything’s just running out of control.

JULIA JONES

Yeah. So, I think I think it’s good to talk about it from that way. Because when we talk about it in this really science way, it’s hard for someone with actually experiencing baby brain right now to kind of keep up with scientific studies and the names of scientists. It’s hard for me to keep up with and my babies are all big now. So often I find it’s much more useful to exactly talk about it from the point of view of the experience of that mother. So usually, I call these changes learning and loving. So, learning obviously relates to the neuroplasticity and loving relates to the hormonal changes. And that is a lot easier for people to kind of digest when they’re in the thick of that the learning can feel very overwhelming because it’s so many new things, so many new neural pathways and your brain is trying to figure out which of these pieces of information is important, which do I keep for my adapting to my new role, and which can I get rid of. And it will get rid of some stuff, because stuff that you needed and was important in your old life before you had children, suddenly now completely irrelevant.

And then the other thing that happens is the loving that can also feel very overwhelming, because it can be anger, it can be fierceness, it can be like hyper vigilance, you know. So, there’s so many ways that that love can manifest it’s not just a you know, like a placid peaceful thing can be very fierce and protective. And, and that hyper vigilance can be really overwhelming as well. And we need to be a little bit careful, because hyper vigilance can be a sign of a mental health problem that there is a degree of vigilance, that is quite a normal protective behaviour if you’re a new mother. But when you’re used to just doing what you want to do going where you want to go listening to what you want to listen to, you know, having your work your life, your social life, your friends. But then then when suddenly all you can ever think about is your baby, that can be extremely overwhelming.

KATH BAQUIE

Okay, yeah, it all makes sense. So, someone’s listening today and that they’re thinking, Okay, I’m in the thick of it, I’ve got baby brain, I can tell this is all resonating with me. What are the next steps? Is it a matter of any tips to help live with baby brain? Do we embrace it? Or do we need to put in some strategies to help reduce the overwhelm? Like, what are some tips for you, for someone who’s listening today that can totally resonate and feel that feels that they’re in a depth of at all?

JULIA JONES

I think for most people just knowing is like a huge relief, because you suddenly realize I’m not crazy. I’m not the only one, this is actually making me a good mother, not a bad mother. So, I think just knowing for a lot of people is really comforting. And then once you do know, then yes, I think it is really a matter of embracing that. You can do that in a couple of ways. One is by providing a lot of stability. And this is something really that ideally, your community would provide for you. But it’s unlikely in our society that that would happen. But just simple things like you know, eating at regular times in the day, I know sleeping happens whenever you can, as a when you’ve got a baby, but just trying to have some rhythm to your day, that gives you that little bit of grounding, while you’re going through these massive changes, trying to keep just good mental health stuffs and fresh air and sunshine, some socializing, some laughter and joy. One thing we talked about with oxytocin is it’s the peace and joy hormone. So, anything you can do to increase that, in that can include like watching your favorited comedy, like it doesn’t have to be, you know, I think we can get a bit stuck in our culture and being like a good mum and practicing mindfulness or something. But maybe actually, all you want to do is watch TED lasso and repeat. And that’s also a completely valid way to find peace and joy in your life. So, I’d say just giving that routine and a little bit of structure and grounding.

The other thing a lot of traditional cultures do is things like massage and belly binding. And a lot of those things those comforting foods, a lot of those things really are just about providing that stability and that love so that whilst you’re going through this huge upheaval in your brain, you feel a little bit more safe to be able to go through that transition.

KATH BAQUIE

I can’t let that on past. What do you mean by belly binding?

JULIA JONES

Like? I mean, literally wrapping up your tummy.

KATH BAQUIE

The belly bands that we’ve got or the abdominal support, tubigrip.

JULIA JONES

Yeah, like tubigrip. I often use tubigrip, it’s like that’s like the modern day way of doing it in traditional cultures. They, you know, I’ve interviewed an English midwife, and she said they used to tear up the bedsheets in the old London Hospital and wrap the mums tummies. I’ve spoken to some Newmar women that Aboriginal elders where I live here in the southwest of WA, and they’ve told me they used paperbark and warmed up rocks by the fire to be able to provide that, that pressure and that warmth. It’s really common in a lot of cultures to do some kind of binding. A lot of people these days have heard of closing of the bones. Most cultures have some kind of variation of that kind of thing. And it’s interesting because talking to someone like you, it’s almost more of an emotional thing than a physical thing. There’s obviously a physical comfort provided by it. But I also think a lot of it really is just that feeling of being held or being put back together of being supported and being safe. So, it doesn’t of course preclude you’re going to get your abdominal muscles and your pelvic floor and things sorted out. It doesn’t make you lose weight, or you know, get skinny or anything like that. It’s much more about providing that grounding.

KATH BAQUIE

Yeah. Absolutely. And I always say to my mums like, you’ve got the rest of your life to get fit, and active and strongmen, do whatever you want to do. But those first, you know, six weeks after birth, the best thing you can do for your body is rest, lie down that horizontal rift and do what it takes to yeah, as you said, like, everything that you’re describing.

JULIA JONES

Yeah, and so the two ways that that would be supported in a traditional culture is one is the binding. And the other one is massage because now we know about blood clots, and that it’s really important to keep your body moving. So, during that rest period, other people would have come to give you massage, and that would have kept your circulation going, and, you know, kept your blood flowing, and all of that kind of thing. So that would have been one of the ways that that women were supported for to have deeper rest.

KATH BAQUIE

Interesting. Because I know in some cultures, correct me if I’m wrong, but they weren’t allowed to leave the hut, for example, for the six weeks, and their only job is to feed the baby and rest. So, then I can see the massage could definitely play a role in terms of reducing blood clots and that sort of thing. Whereas in our society, you know, we’re still going up to the toilet, we’re still moving around. So, we were naturally like, even in hospital after a caesarean the next day, they’re getting you out of bed.

JULIA JONES

They always want you to get out of bed. I know. Because I often find after I’ve had babies, and every time I had a baby, they’ll like right up and have a shower. I’m like, I really am not ready. They love getting you up out of bed, don’t they?

KATH BAQUIE

That’s right, balancing it balancing all that needs, isn’t it?

JULIA JONES

Yes, yes. And not being restrictive as well. Because I also think some people listening to this going, oh, my God, I couldn’t bear the thought of spending six weeks in bed. And that’s okay. You know, but the principles of rest and stability and support, those principles are still there. You just do it in the way that looks and feels right for you.

KATH BAQUIE

Oh, 100%. Absolutely. Good point there, Julia. So, we have dived into what the baby brain is, we’ve talked about the way it might feel. We’ve talked through some strategies to help, I guess I’m a embrace it. And then are there any other tips or strategies that you want to just let our listeners know about before we wrap this up?

JULIA JONES

I think the main thing is this support should be provided for you with you not having to think about it, learn about it, plan for it, ask for help, but it’s not. So, it’s really a hard thing. Because sometimes it can be a relief to learn about this stuff. And then sometimes they can also feel like there’s a bit of grief as well, because you realize that you’re not going to get what you need. So just acknowledging that that’s, that’s the difficulty that we face. But there are more and more of people becoming aware of how important this time is, both emotionally as well as medically, the World Health Organization says that the immediate time after having a baby is one of the most critical times in a woman’s life and also one of the most neglected around the world. So, it’s, it’s, you know, it’s really important. And if you’re feeling pretty rubbish, that’s not a huge surprise. But there are lots of people who can help. So, whether that’s friends and family, whether that is calling in a postpartum professional or women’s health, physio or mental health support, there are lots of options out there. Try not to get too stuck into information overload and really try and get that more practical physical support. I think that’s the real gap that that we face.

KATH BAQUIE

Okay, so some good first protocol, apart from what you’ve just said, would also be maternal child health nurse and GP.

JULIA JONES

Yes. Yet GPs can do referrals for lots of different things. If you already have a primary care like midwife and obstetrician, they can also help you find the right kind of place to call. In Australia, we’re lucky we have the Australian Breastfeeding Association hotline, we have the Panda Mental Health hotline, you know, so there’s lots of different places you can call if you’re not really sure what to do, or who to ask about something, or if something’s really serious, or it doesn’t really matter, you know. Because it was really overwhelming in that time when you’re not supported by your moms and your aunties and your sisters. And you know, you’re just not really sure what’s right and what you should be getting more help with.

KATH BAQUIE

Well, thank you, Julia. I think it’s been great to chat about a topic that as I said before, sort of a bit of a throwaway line, throwaway topic. So, it’s good to have been able to dive into it and reflect upon it. Because I think as you said, just knowing about it will hopefully help listeners today. So, thank you so much for joining me today for those who want to learn more about you and investigate you a little bit more. How can they find you?

JULIA JONES

Yeah, well, just as we were talking, I remember the names of the two scientists, so I think it’s really important to always acknowledge my lineage and you know who I’ve learned for. So, Kerstin Uvnas Moberg was the oxytocin scientist, Marian diamond was the neuroplasticity scientist, and they still are, Kerstin Uvnas Moberg is still alive today and still very prolific in her work. But they both have made massive contributions to this, this world. I’ve pulled all this stuff together myself from many, many different teachers, some of whom I’ve mentioned today into Newborn Mothers collective, which is a Postpartum training course. So, if anyone’s interested in actually becoming a professional or doing it as postpartum, sorry, professional development within their existing career that that training is available. Or if people are just listening to this as mums and just want to know, for themselves, I have a book called newborn mothers, which is very short, very easy to read, and can just kind of give you the overview of all of these different topics.

KATH BAQUIE

Amazing. And you’ve got a podcast.

JULIA JONES

I do also have a podcast. Yeah.

KATH BAQUIE

We forgot.

JULIA JONES

Yeah, you can find Katherine on.

KATH BAQUIE

Yes. So, I will link all of those in the show notes so that you can find Julia directly. So, thank you so much, Julia, for joining me today. It has been great to chat.

JULIA JONES

Thank you so much, Katherine.

KATH BAQUIE

And before I sign off, remember my team and I will be putting together the show notes for this episode with all the links including how to connect with Julia at www.fitnestmama.com/podcast. And don’t forget to send Julia and myself a DM on Instagram. We would love to hear from you. Have a fabulous day everyone and I look forward to you joining me next week for another episode of the FitNest Mama Podcast.

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